The Shotgun
(As so many have been, this article was predicated on a conversation with a very dear friend recently. Said friend, a fellow veteran, albeit not SOF, has been a “prepper” since 2008, and has a very significant retreat set-up and arms room. We were discussing how he has the opportunity to help influence the choices of new preppers he meets, as they ask him for advice and guidance on purchasing their first weapons, and other equipment. He told me that he always recommends a shotgun for their first long-gun purchase, because of the ease of handling, devastating effectiveness, and its point-and-shoot nature. I promptly tried to correct his, all-too-common misconceptions about the role of the shotgun as an anti-personnel weapon. That conversation led me to consider the prevalence of those beliefs in the civilian gun world, so we’re going to dispel some commonly cherished myths about the streetsweeper. -J.M.)
One of the most commonly voiced reasons for selecting a shotgun for the home defense long gun is the perceived ease of operation. Most people of course, are referring to the pump shotguns when they use this argument, although I’ll discuss it in relation to semi-automatic shotguns from the Benelli M4 to the Saiga as well.
First of all, one of the most commonly induced malfunctions in a riot-gun is operator error, in short-stroking the slide. In essence, the operator, under stress, jerks the slide rearward, and shoves it forward again, but fails to move it rearward enough to actually pick up the new round. This obviously, results in a click when the shooter expects a boom…sometimes referred to as “the loudest sound in the world.” I’ve done it myself. In a properly functioning semi-auto scattergun, this is not going to be an issue, anymore than it would be in a semi-automatic rifle. However, the ease-of-operation theory is blown completely out of the water when you consider the layout of operator controls on pretty much every shotgun manufactured today. Safeties tend to be either in front of the trigger well, which is fine for preparing to fire, but requires removing the firing grip to put the safety back on (which we ALWAYS do when we move….ALWAYS!….except when we use the shotgun for breaching….), which is far from simpler than running the safety on an Stoner or Kalashnikov, or pretty much any other weapon originally designed to be used to kill bad people. The other most common place to find a safety on a shotgun is on the tang, at the rear of the receiver. This, granted, is a far more ergonomic location, but is still no simpler to operate than on a decent fighting rifle.
Recoil on any 12-gauge, while far from horrible, is far greater than a .308, let alone a 5.56 or 7.62×39, and many shooters, men and women (whether those shooters will admit it or not) are incredibly intimidated by the perceived recoil of the “mighty twelve.” I’ve watched grown men, weighing far more than my 210 pounds, who were physically much stronger, clench up in anticipation of the recoil in an 870 or 500. As any moderately good marksmanship instructor will gladly inform you, anticipating recoil this way is a sure way to shoot like shit. The idea that a shotgun is simpler to operate than a fighting rifle or carbine is, to put it simply, wrong. Anyone who argues otherwise either A) does not know how to run a fighting rifle properly, or B) has not actually thought about what they’re preaching in a rational manner.
A well-placed load of double-0 buckshot, or even a slug, IS going to have a devastating effect on the recipient. As a former 18D brother pointed out in a conversation on this subject the other day, “Put a load of number nine shot into a dude’s chest, and ain’t no 18D in the world fixing that!” Arguing otherwise would be the height of stupidity. Nine .30 caliber holes in close proximity is going to cause a metric shit-ton of musculo-skeletal damage. However, you have to consider a couple of other factors as well, before declaring it THE most devastating.
First of all, how many of those holes were actually necessary to kill the bad guy, or stop his threatening activities? Did it require nine holes? Or would two or three have been sufficient? Did it really require a .57 caliber slug to stop the dude in his tracks? Or would two rounds of 5.56 or .308 have done the trick just as efficiently? How fast can the shooter recover his sight picture following the recoil cycle, while cycling the action, and put a follow-up shot into the bad guy, or his accomplice(s)? A moderately well-trained shooter, running an M4, can, at shotgun ranges, reliably put 4-6 rounds, per second, on target. Properly mounted to the shooter, there is virtually no muzzle-flip to an M4, or even an SR-25/FAL/M1A, because the gun is run in such a manner as to direct the recoil straight into the shooter’s shoulder, and he’s got the gun mounted to maximize his shot-to-shot recovery (I realize running a shotgun should be done the same way, but there’s still MORE recoil). On a SLOW day, I can put multiple (2-4) rounds into three upper thoracic cavities in less than 3-4 seconds, with my M4. Can I match that with one round per target running a pump gun? Maybe. Maybe not.
What is the maximum effective range of a load of 12-gauge double-0 buck? 20 yards? 35 yards? 50 yards? Let’s call it 35 yards, to be generous, and call 100 yards the outside for most people running a slug-loaded gun. Even if you think the M4 is a “poodle-shooter” and limited to 200 yards….yeah, you get the point. It is inarguable that a hit from a shotgun is going to create a far more devastating wound than 5.56…But, before you decide to write off the “.22 varmint round,” let me ask you this….Will you stand there and let me stab you in the chest with a fucking ice pick? I didn’t think so.
Shotguns, in the modern forms we know them, are based on sporting shotgun designs (with the obvious exception of the Saiga, and perhaps the KSG, although since I’ve only seen two, and neither ran worth a fuck, I didn’t pay nearly enough attention to it, so it’s hard to say definitively). They are just fine for shooting rabbits sprinting through a field, or birds on the wing. They are not ideal in the role of killing bad people who are trying to kill you.
But, let’s move on, and look at the “point-and-shoot” argument. How many times have you heard some Hillbilly claim that he prefers a shotgun, because he doesn’t have to aim it, he can just point and “BOOM! That there shot will jes’ spread out and hit him, even if my aim ain’t perfect.” The ironic part is, most of the time when I hear this, it’s from some yahoo who claims to be fucking Dead-Eye Dick in the flesh, and can make 1500 yard shots, with a .30-06, holding two inches above the point-of-impact (seriously, I had a dude claim that once, with a straight face….go check out a ballistic table for .30-06….ANY load…). Interestingly, there was an article on shotguns recently, in SWAT magazine. The author showed a photograph of a head shot, on a hostage taker target, taken at something like 15 yards (not feet)…So, if the shot pattern is tight enough to get a head shot, without any pellets hitting the “hostage” at that distance, exactly how imprecise can you be and still get hits? Yeah…. It’s a point-target weapon. You need to aim it, and unless you mount some sort of optic on it, or at least a ghost ring type sight, the stock sights on shotguns are seldom designed for close-range accuracy. If you’re shooting birds or trap/skeet/clays, you can use just the front sight bead (theoretically, that would work at extreme close ranges also, just like it does on a rifle. It’s that intermediate distance we’re concerned with though, and if it works with a rifle, how does that make the shotgun an advantage again?).
Let’s say you count the 9 .32 caliber pellets in a load of double-0 buck as nine individual rounds. Let’s assume you’ve got a 9 round tube magazine under the barrel. So, you’re carrying 81 “rounds,” but you can only kill, at most, 9 bad guys with those 81 rounds. An M4, even with a 20-round magazine, and assuming it takes two rounds per bad guy to kill them, can match that. How long is it going to take you to reload that shotgun? How long is it going to take me to reload my M4 (hint, less than 5 seconds on a slow day, in the dark, with gloves on)? That’s presuming of course, that every single round you fire actually connects with, and kills a bad guy. What if you need to provide suppressive fire for a buddy to move?
Another common argument I hear, especially in the home defense argument, is the over-penetration issue. The reality however, is that one of the major reasons law enforcement agencies switched over to Stoner platforms from shotguns was the fact that 5.56 actually over-penetrates and punches through walls less than shotgun rounds do. This is NOT to say that you can’t shoot through an interior home wall with 5.56, just that the rounds are less likely to smoke your kid in the other room afterwards, than a load of 00 Buck is (before you start piling on about how this proves 5.56 is an inferior combat round because it can’t shoot through light cover, don’t waste your breath. Doing so will serve no purpose other than to illustrate a complete lack of understanding of the requirement of fire-and-maneuver in small-unit combat). I’ve shot through a lot of walls with 5.56. In my experience, it’s sort of a half-and-half thing, depending on the load more than anything else. I’ve also witnessed field tests of penetration and seen buckshot blow through a sheet-rocked interior wall without slowing down or changing the pattern noticeably.
Finally, let’s discuss the equally ludicrous redneck concept of “the sound of a shotgun being racked can turn a criminal into a quivering puddle of utter terror and piss.” Bullshit. Bad guys who come into houses where they know people are, expect the possibility that the occupants might be armed. That’s why home invasions are all the rage. They come in with overwhelming violence-of-action and force, and bring the occupants to the ground before you can even lunge for the scattergun behind the couch. Further, I would argue, if the sound of the shotgun being racked is enough to make him run away like a scared bitch, A) the bad guy wasn’t very dedicated to what he was doing anyway, and B) the sight of a rifle barrel pointed at his face is going to be equally discouraging. If I point my weapon at someone, they’re getting shot. If they’re not enough of a threat to shoot, I have no business pointing my weapon at them. I will also point out, if you pointed a shotgun at me, and then racked the slide, it would convince me of two things. One, you weren’t smart enough to already have the fucking gun loaded, and two, this means there’s a pretty good chance you don’t have a fucking clue what you’re doing. I’m going to feed the weapon to you.
I’m not bad-mouthing shotguns. In their place, they’re great guns, and do their jobs better than anything else available. Unfortunately, the reality is, whether home defense, or in combat, that place is not the anti-personnel role. If you want to recommend an ideal long-gun for a novice, and they’re willing to get even a little bit of training, point them at an M4, with a 14.5″ or 16″ barrel, and a red-dot optic, and white light. If they’re a novice and refuse to get any training….point them towards a Kalashnikov, then beat them over the head with it until they decide to get some training. Either weapon is easier to use, more effective, and will perform far more functions than the shotgun. All that having been said, if all I could pick up was a shotgun, I’d not feel unarmed. I’d be more than willing to go towards the sound of the guns, knowing I would be working on getting a better weapon as soon as possible.
Now, in that ever-present interest of intellectual honesty, I don’t currently own a shotgun. If I WAS going to purchase a shotgun, it would be either a short-barreled (18″ of course. I don’t break federal firearms laws) pump gun (870 or 500 variant), with a regular buttstock, solely for breaching purposes, or it would be a short-barreled coach gun in 12-gauge, or a black-powder, short-barreled coach gun in 10-gauge, solely for the coolness factor. Since I don’t currently need to breach doors, and I refuse to ask permission to have a shotgun with a short enough barrel to make a good breaching gun, and I can’t afford to purchase guns simply for the coolness factor, I don’t own a shotgun. If I need a breaching gun down the road, I’m pretty sure I can come up with one easily enough.
Carrying the Shotgun
Once upon a time, I regularly carried a very short Remington 870 attached to my body armor by a bungee cord. It was always loaded with 3-rounds in the tube, the chamber empty, and the safety was never used, because it was never carried in movement, with a loaded chamber. It was used solely for breaching. You move up to the door, rack a round, blow the lock, drop the gun as you transition to your primary, and follow the rest of the team through the door.
Three years ago, I shot clay/skeet/trap, for the first time in my life (I honestly just don’t know the difference between the three, so I really don’t know which it was). It was a shitload of fun, and I did okay, but it was the first time in my life, that I had ever fired a shotgun for anything other than breaching or simple familiarization.
Nous Defions!
John Mosby
SFOB-Rifleman’s Ridge
I shoot both AR platform and 12 gauge….and taught my kids to shoot both. They can
handle both but they prefer the shotgun as it’s sleeker, simpler and with the right load
can do whatever needs doing. Bird will take small game, Number 4-2 buck works for
coyotes AND people….with less over penetration and buck/slugs can stop bigger game
like bear and hopped up two legged varmints. My wife prefers 20 guage which is roughly
equal to 2 44mag rounds per shell. We have Mossberg 500 series guns but lately we
have moved to semiauto in both gauges because it’s much quicker and easier to stay
on target if the gun cycles than if you have to rack the pump. The shottys are pretty much for home defense and have holosights and lights on rails…..AR’s are designated for exterior
use at distances past 25 yards….both are kept at hand while at home as all are old enough
to trust with guns in the home. However the house is built so that approach triggers
notification and entry is far harder and more time consuming than appearances suggest.
This allows the needed moment to grab the appropriate response tool…..home defense
based solely on what gun to use is inadequate…..prepping the environment to support
the homeowner is the foundation all else depends on.
Consider adding tactical shotguns to your mix…..you might find you like them.
I suggest you look at the Mossberg SA20 which can be had in tactical sizes and for
an extremely good value Big5 carries a semi 12 gauge called the Escort made by Hatsan
a Turkish company…..I have two and at about $425 each they are real sweet.
Your .mil training makes you partial to the M4 but don’t sell other weapons short. Shotty’s can do a LOT that AR platforms can’t. Both should be in the arsenal if possible….especially since they can be used for hunting game that AR’s simply can’t take…..And barrel changes can take only a minute or two. Go from 18″ to 26″ in moments with many models.
Dan,
That’s cool that the wife and kids are trained to run all the types of weapons in the house. If they’re comfortable with the scattergun, by all means run it, and I agree with you on the idea that they can accomplish a lot of things a Stoner has trouble with (I’ve tried shooting birds on the wing with an M4……yeah, anyway….
However….”with less over penetration” is demonstrably false. The idea that buckshot is a wunderkind round is equally false. Yes, it will stop large game better than a 5.56 will. It will not stop bad people any more effectively than 5.56 will. There have, contrary to popular mythology, been numerous recorded cases of LE-involved shootings, wherein the suspect was shot with one OR MORE loads of 00 Buck at room distance, and not only survived, but was never even put down.
I will eventually add a shotgun to the arms room, but it won’t be for tactical applications.
I agree that 00 buck penetrates….that’s the nice thing about shottys’.
The pellets come in lots of different sizes. No4 will drop a bad guy just
as well as 00 and doesn’t penetrate like 00. About the only thing that
shotguns can’t do is defeat quality body armor. Any good vest will stop
even slugs and 00 buck. But then we train to not shoot COM….we train to
aim just below the belt or at the sternal notch. Body armor is becoming
common….shoot where it isn’t. Even 7.62 won’t penetrate good plates.
A hit to the pelvis will anchor your opponent.
Unless they are heavily drugged a good hit breaks pelvic/hip bones and
people just don’t move well with those fractures….in fact the majority can’t
move at all.
I could not agree more. One of my coworkers (.mil experience but a REMF-type, not combat arms) ran out and grabbed a cheap 12 gauge pump from the pawn shop for “home defense.” He then realized he had no idea how to run it or store it safely. So my spouse taught him and his wife the NRA Home Firearms Safety class (basics but good ones for brand new firearms owners) and then we took him out to the range.
Recoil was nasty for him, luckily I’d suggested he pick up a box of reduced recoil buck which mitigated that to some degree. Short stroking was a big problem. He was shocked that he actually had to aim when we patterned it at hallway distances. There was NO WAY reloading was going to happen in a timely manner. It was a big eye opener for him.
I had him run a few rounds through my M4gery afterwards against the same silhouette at hallway distance and he regretted his choice.
The only times I see a shotgun being the choice for home defense are:
1) Extremely tight budget. You can get a serviceable Mossberg 500 for $250. An AK or AR-15 even before the current panic would be at least twice that if not more. I’d feel better with a Mossberg 500 than most $200 rifles or handguns.
2) The shooter is already very familiar with shotguns with little desire to learn the carbine. But even this is questionable; most skeet shooters don’t practice fighting shotgun techniques like topping off the gun with reloads or clearing malfunctions. I suppose there are some older LEOs that came on the force before “patrol carbines” (assault rifles) were all the rage who might have a lot of muscle memory invested in the pump shottie. That’s about it though.
3) You live in a jurisdiction with shitty firearms laws.
Great article.
You forgot one other point in the shotgun’s favor: the ammo is relatively inexpensive and widely available. Never at any time in the last 5 years have I had problems finding good shotgun ammo at a decent price. Can’t say that about 5.56.
Also, AR-pattern rifles are simply not available at this time. Anybody looking to get armed right now with a long gun is going to have two choices: either a bolt-action rifle or a shotgun. In that case, the choice has to be shotgun for the vast majority of people.
Price is the reason I am buying a shotgun. I procrastinated too long for an affordable AR.
As for ammo, I gotta disagree. Bird shot, yes, I can get a box of 100 from walmart for like 25 bucks, but any good defensive ammo runs about a dollar per round. I don’t think I’ve ever paid less than 5 bucks for a box of 5 of buckshot. Even with the panic now, 5.56 is like 70-80 cents per round, when you can find it. That’s a little cheaper, and once things settle, if we’re still legally allowed to own ammo, I bet it will go down.
“Anybody looking to get armed right now with a long gun is going to have two choices: either a bolt-action rifle or a shotgun.”
Let’s not forget the lowly lever-action — the Old West Assault Rifle.
There are a lot worse long guns to be had than, say, a Winchester ’94 in .30-30.
:^)
I have never seen any of your other articles that I have a significant disagreement with. That said, I disagree with you on this one.
I recommend the shotgun for folks because it provides a versatile weapon, teaches point shooting and introduces folks to the basic concepts of hitting moving targets (via trap/skeet/sporting clays, etc.). The shotgun, when properly used as a teaching tool, can cut the time it takes to teach the concept of hitting moving targets with a rifle in half–especially within 200m.
The shotgun is an extremely versatile weapon. With the change of a barrel it can go from an excellent short range weapon to a intermediate range meat provider. The shotgun’s ability to put meat on the table is just as good or better than a .22 LR.
I grew up on a ranch in the very tip of the Oklahoma panhandle. From the age of about 7 until I joined the Army at 18 I had either my 870 with me or my Mini-14 (later an AR-15) and often both. Hunting pheasant, quail, pronghorn and rabbits to eat and controlling the coyote, rattlesnake and prairie dog populations. They were as much a part of me as my arms.
Carrying a combination of an M4 and an 870 is going to enable you to live easier off the land, give you more tactical options and there are a couple of things that a shotgun (or shotgun rounds) does like no others: 1) #4 shot does not penetrate two layers of sheetrock with enough velocity left over to do real damage on the other side (with the muzzle at least 10 feet away from the first layer). To be clear, this is not a theory..this is a fact observed through my testing. This is important when one has four children on the same floor with them–especially when two are 3 y/o twins. 2) Aiming a round of 3″ 00 buck at concrete or cold asphalt about 5 feet in front of an advancing crowd (at least 15 feet from the muzzle) and letting it ricochet up into the legs stops violent crowds in their tracks (temporarily). 3) Shotgun rounds make great toe-poppers and could, theoretically of course (never done it and never would unless we are invaded by China or something), be assembled into a re-usable device to provide some of the functionality of a claymore, though with less power and effective only against dismounted troops. 4) Cave clearing 5) Sabot slugs play hell with engine blocks.
Recoil can be reduced dramatically in a number of ways. I don’t worry much about it because I am a big guy. but everything from porting to high-end recoil reducers and recoil absorbing stocks are available.
There are also a lot of useful rounds for shotguns out there that are good for coordination purposes like shifting fire, etc. in the event one doesn’t have high-speed commo or ready access to 40mm star cluster rounds/launchers, etc.
The problems you call out in the operation of a shotgun are no worse than the training issues with the M4 platform. Do not get me wrong, I carried the M16 into harm’s way and I respect it–I also understand its limitations but one has to be a very proficient rifleman operating in fairly open terrain with long engagement ranges, like wide open prairie..or mountain-to-mountain, to legitimately be limited by the 5.56 round. The problem with short racking is no different than the problem with failure to properly seat the magazine on an M4 and the problem is corrected much faster than running through SPORTS (properly). Also, an M4 can’t be reloaded as rounds are expended. When properly trained in the use of a shotgun for tactical purposes the magazine is reloaded as rounds are expended (kinetic reload) and muscle memory is developed by bringing the slide back all of the way to the stop each time it is racked. Practice and proper training prevent most issues.
The short of it is that I believe that the 12 ga. shotgun is a good first gun for adult males seeking home protection, etc. and its versatility makes it useful even after one has become proficient with other weapons. Teaching one to be proficient with a shotgun at close range is not as difficult as a pistol and, with #4 shot or smaller (like #8), overpenetration in a modern home scenario is unlikely while still ensuring adequate wounding to stop an intruder.
If you ever make your way to Colorado or would like to do some joint training along the Front Range in Colorado or the Oklahoma panhandle area you should let me know. I’m pretty sure we have shared the same mud or eaten the same blackberries at least once, judging by your name and the info you’ve posted. We get together with a few folks now and again to stay current and do joint bulk ammo buys, etc. I’m sure you know at least some of them as well.
I have a great respect for what you are doing and will help in any way I can.
First my wife and I are complete novices when it comes to guns and I’ll be 60 yo this year and she is not far behind me. When we went to the store to purchase a weapon for home defense we had a nice salesman who would not let us buy any weapon till we knew a little of what we where getting into. Our first thought was like anyone else. A 12 gage would do the trick. Something we could put in the closet and buy enough rounds for and bring it out when needed. We live in a rural area and home defense is not a big issue at the moment but we do see the need for it when things fall apart.
Well we set up an appointment with him for some range time. He brought two guns for us to fire. One was a 500 series shotgun and the other was a S&W 15-22 22LR.
After going over the basics of safety and the shotgun workings he had us site and shoot the 12 gage at 10 yards. We where both quite pleased as we hit the target. He then had us place the 12 gage on the table next to us. He then stated the target in front of use had just kicked the door in and was standing there with a pistol and was commencing to shoot at us. He then to us to pick up the shotgun and shoot him first and time was of the essence. Well my first shot was wide and my poor wifes shot was so bad the shotgun kicked backwards out of her hand. The second scenario was to fire 2 rounds of the 12 gage quickly to knock down the target. Well we hit the target the first time and didn’t even come close with the second shot. We realized how hard it was to reaquire the target after the kick from the first round.
I think he did an excellent job of convincing us that a 12 gage was not our weapon and my wife hates it.
His second weapon was the S&W 15.22. So you know where this is going don’t you. We fell in love, it was fun to shoot and gave us a lot more confidence we could protect ourselves.
What sold us on it was it was easy to master, easier to keep on target and I don’t care who you are, no one will just stand there and let a bee keep stinging them all over. After watching our 22LR rounds go through a thick piece of wood at 50 yards I think the sting is a little greater than a bee sting.
Sure, someday we hope to move up in caliber but we are happy we got something we enjoy shooting and the price of ammo is dirt cheap (for now).
danrshaw, don’t kid yourself, .22LR is not an adequate self-defense round. But it’s better than nothing and, to the salesman’s credit, it is an excellent place for a new shooter to start. “Someday we hope to move up in caliber…”, my advice is, do whatever you can to move “someday” closer to “today”.
Who the hell said I was kidding myself? We aren’t stupid. Did you know more people die from 22 rounds than any other round? We may be novice in this but we do realize the diffence in the stopping power of different caliber rounds and the weapons that deliver them. We are going with something we are not afraid of and still deliver 10 rounds or more within a 5 second time frame at short distance. We also went with something we can fit in our budget taking into account all our other preps. I’d rather have 1000 or more rounds of 22LR than a more expsive weapon and only 200 rounds or less. Once again, when our food preps are adequate maybe we can save up for a larger caliber weapon for more standoff range but inside our doublewide the weapon we have are quite capable.
We also have friends around so obtaining higher caliber weapons won’t be a problem no matter what the feds try to do with weapons laws.
i don’t recommend .22 . Yes it has killed lots of people….it just doesn’t do it quickly as a rule. You can shoot a person 10 times with it then he yanks it out of your hand, beats you to death with it then shoves it up your dead ass…..and dies the next day in the hospital.
Trust me…..35 years in hospitals….most of it imaging ER patients….and I have seen a LOT
of .22 GSW’s. The only shotgun GSW’s I have seen make it to ER were birdshot wounds
and extremity hits, which frequently ended up amputated. Shotguns aren’t perfect, no gun is but a COM hit with the right ammo is DEVASTATING and with rare exception a near immediate fatal wound. The kind where the bad guy can’t kill you before he bleeds out.
Thank you for this article. You have articulated this much better than I do, and i get into this argument a lot, especially on ‘prepper’ websites I frequent.
I really, I mean REALLY, hate it when I hear someone say that you don’t need to to aim a 12 gauge. I especially hate it when that someone is SUPPOSED to be a professional (posting YouTube vids about gun fighter stuff) and folks that do not know any better listen to that advice.
Keep up the great work.
if all you have is a shotty, cut the stock down a inch or two or get a knoxx adjustable stock for it. it’ll help with the short stroking tremendously. i’m an ar guy, but i keep a shotty by the door so i won’t kill my neighbors in their sleep by accident. i read an article the other day about having the pointman carry a shotty. somebody is stuck in 1969. thanks for all you do.
100% agree, but I know two rather large men who when asking me what should be their gun for the end of the world or other strange crap I recomended the 870 Express. All around gun with a great many ammo choices which I pointed out, and the home social factor which cannot be denied, especially here in SoccerMommatopia the great world of “niceness.” 870 with two barrels, no pistol grip crap wood stock only and reduced recoil tactical ammo and plenty of bird shot and go practice, alot (of course they won’t). No talisman effect of having the “evil” black gun that draws interest both good and bad, but just like Ol’ Uncle Ernie’s shotgun. And Wally World will always, we hope have a box or two of duck loads.
I have an 870 to round out the collection. I went with the 870 because my tiny girl hands require me to completely leave my firing grip position to disengage the safety on the 500s. I considered it a multi-tool: hunting birds and small game, breaching, and short-range anti-personnel. It’s heavy as fuck though, and I’ll take a 7lb AR with 30rds over my 9lb 870 with 7 shells any day.
First let me say that I am new here to the blog this is my first post and so far I absolutely love the blog. The nonsense way it is written and the content from someone who knows there stuff and has been there and has done that is refreshing and informative.
On the skeet, trap, clays (sporting clays) thing.
Skeet, all the same size targets coming from usually a low house and a high house and you have a set number stations where you go to that are set up in a half moon fashion. You will take a shot from the low house and a shot from the high house. You also have doubles from the first couple of positions on each side of the house.
Sporting clays are the most fun to me. You have multiple stages that are set up , usually in similar to hunting environments. you may have singles that cross go strait away, come in, speeds may be different, you may have true doubles, report doubles and the targets may be different sizes.
Trap the house is on the ground and you have stations. It is similar to skeet except you have one house and the way we did it the machine in the house moves left and right and you never know exactly which direction the clay will come out at.
I am sure there are tons of variations on this and I never shot serious competition and my shooting on this was done years ago so I may have forgotten a few things but you get the idea.
The shotgun is a compromise weapon when thought of for defensive use. Things that compromise rarely do any one thing great but the shotgun does a few things well but is not the anti tank or whatever many make it out to be. Generally what pisses me off the most about shotguns is folks want to use bird shot and they want to do the pump racking sound to scare folks away. This is stupid on so many levels. Sure that load of high brass 6′s that bust a turkeys ass will surely fuck some one up at 15 feet and I don’t want to be shot with it, but if you are talking about your life or the life of your wife or child on the line, put the best freaking round in the gun to give you the greatest chance of success at stopping the attacker. Sure 1 round of 6′s may do it or they may not. If the dude is hyped up on crack you will not stop him until he is no longer able to physically keep attacking. A little blood lose and messed up ribs will not do that. A punctured lung will not do it.
Instead of preparing for the best case scenario try to prepare for the worst and then hope for the best.
I was raised on shooting a shotgun so for me running a pump is like 2nd nature. I have used it in self defense of animals that were trying to hurt me but never against humans.
Inside a normal house it is long, big, bulky, heavy, magazine capacity is low compared to most other suitable self defense choices, they are slow to reload and so on. To me they are at there best when you and our family are gathered in your safe room and the home invader is tearing through your bedroom door, not for clearing your house or going to get your child from their room before retreating back to your safe room.
My experiences in using a shotgun against animals for self defense, shows me you have to freaking aim them, buck shot is not a magical round that will reduce the would be attacker into a puddle of flesh. I once shot a charging wild boar 3 times with 00 buck at almost point blank range. I hit him every time and upon skinning him we found buck shot from his head to his ass but the 3 rd and final shot which the wad actually hit him in the head was the one that put him down.
However I love a shotgun and keep one close to my bed. My handgun is my go to with the shotgun being 2nd if I have time to get it. It is chambered and magazine filled with 00 buck. I have rounds on the side to replenish fired rounds but my plan is to shoot the shotgun dry and drop it and move on to my pistol if the fight is not over. Reloading a shotgun in the middle of a fight when you have another loaded weapon at hand is stupid unless you have have friends covering you, but in a home defense scenario you are more than likely a one man army.
Thanks for the explanation of the differences, bro. Seriously.
Here’s one reason to at least be functional with shotguns (both pump and semi-autos): other folks have them and they may be the sole available weapon in your time of need.
You don’t have to have the breadth/depth of an 18B, but it behooves you to know how to “load/unload/fire/reduce a stoppage” on as many common firearms as is practical for you. That means ARs/AKs, S&W M&P/Glock/Sig, Benelli/Remmington/Mossberg. It would be a shame if you shot home invader #1 out of 3 with your AR, it jammed, and you didn’t know how to pick up and operate the AK that invader #1 could no longer operate.
I like shotguns. My favorite is my Saiga 12.
I’d still go for the rifle first.
While I, like you, would reach for an AR or equivalent first, I can’t argue against past experience. One quiet weekend afternoon, during daylight mind you, some little p.o.s. decided it was a good day to attempt a rape. About 15 feet from my front door. After noting same due to the commotion, my reach behind the hall door for the loaded M1903A3 Springfield and attached 16″ bayonet normally kept there (sorry, but I was young and Marine training dies hard) was thwarted by my significant other’s recent housecleaning efforts, so being rather gun-limited at that point in life, the next thing to come quickly to hand was in fact a 12 ga. side-by-side “cool” coach gun and a fistful of 00 Buck shells. Pointing it at the critter had negligible effect. Shouting quite distinctly and directly that he cease and desist, in fluent English, Spanish, and profanity, same-same. But as he was raising his left hand to shoot me the middle finger in response, his eyes glanced over at me, and connected with the two gaping black barrels pointed straight at his head. Then his eyes got about as big as dinner plates, his jaw went kind of floppy towards his chest, he popped up off his intended prey like a marionette on strings, edged sideways a step, and suddenly recalled another area code he urgently needed to be in. Possibly in order to locate some fresh underpants.
Sadly, it wasn’t nearly the endorphin rush I would have chosen by pinning him to a tree with the bayonet and listening to him whine until the cops came, but it was good enough in a pinch.
Shotguns are like old ugly pickup trucks: they may not be the best choice for most things, but they’ll get a lot of jobs done one way or another.
Interesting article. Another factor about the Shotgun is that it is a fairly “politically correct” weapon, even England makes it easy for someone to acquire a Shotgun with very little hassle (albeit with ridiculous barrel length restrictions and capacity restrictions) and most places in Europe also allow you to acquire a Shotgun fairly easily.
They’re normally available all around the world and the ammunition is normally plentiful. Are the be all and end all? Absolutely not but I suppose it comes under the caveat that it is better to have *something* rather than nothing.
For shotguns, check out cut shells, the poormans slug. There are some U tube video’s out there. These are an excellent way to get a hell of a lot more firepower out of cheap bird shot rounds. I have made these and cycled them without a problem through my 500. If a shotgun is all you have, or even just a backup weapon, cut shells should be in your ammo inventory.
So, I’d be careful doing this. #8 shot may work fine but get a hot loaded #8 or go up to #6 or #4 shot (or larger) and you could have some big problems. This may also not work on 3″ or 3 1/2″ #8 loads but work on some 2 3/4″ #8 loads. In essence, what you are doing is increasing the chamber pressure due to additional friction (the hull is not meant to go down the barrel) and increased projectile weight, not to mention the problems caused when cycling. I’d virtually guarantee a failure to eject and many potential problems trying to feed these through any type of magazine.
For those who don’t know, an increase in chamber pressure can lead to everything from damage to your shotgun all the way to death, depending upon the degree of chamber/barrel integrity failure.
As you say, the shotty is ‘hobby grade’ not ‘operator’ grade and just not meant for the same environments.
Even with the safety on, the vast majority of shotguns are not ‘drop safe’, as the safety only prevents the trigger from being pulled. The hammer can still be jarred off the sear in a fall.
The manual of arms is complicated. How should it be stored? Carried? How do you unload it?
The recoil is manageable under good circumstances, but what about when you have to take that shot from a less than optimal position?
Ammo is big and heavy. How much can you actually carry?
In my view, first gun should be a good pistol, because you can always have it with you and it will be your last means of defense. You can carry it low profile in situations where a long gun would be inappropriate.
Next gun should be an AR. Toss in a .22 conversion kit and you have cheap, quiet practice. You can take small game with the .22, and with the new CCI ‘Quiet’ ammo, you won’t be heard much more that 50 yards away.
If you want to hit a little harder you can get a .300 or 7.62 upper.
Next two guns should be twins of the above. One is none…
THEN you can think about branching out into a shotty and/or a longer range rifle.
My only other suggestion to zen’s order of purchase would be to buy a dedicated .22 instead of a .22 convo kit. This also goes for the .300 or 7.62 uppers. This may cost a couple more $$ but it also doesn’t rely on a single lower. Parts can fail, I’d hate to lose 2 or 3 of my weapons choices simply due to a failure of a component in my lower assy. I know that I’ve got my M&P15 setup the way I like it, and I’ve also purchased the M&P15-22 so that I can practice cheaply with an almost identical platform. Plus, worse case senario, it still provides two different weapons for two different people if the need should arise. Just my $.02, your milage may vary. The purchase order, however, was almost identical to my path. Hangun first (actually two different ones), then AR, AR trainer, next was my sbr AK with sidefolding stock, then my shotty. That being said, I did previously have a SKS and a few shotguns (that were either 20ga or weren’t setup for defense). Next comes my long distance weapon. Also, I would add taht even if your significant other doesn’t like shooting the larger calibers or higher recoiling weapons, at least teach them to understand their operation. My wife doesn’t love my 870tactical, but if it’s what was close she would sure grab it to confront a threat if she had to rather than going to find her primary defense pistol. .
Thank you John, as always I’ve learned something new from reading your blog. I also learned a bit from all the replies to this posting, which I’m guessing was your actual goal, knowing there would be many who disagree. For myself, I realized some time ago that the limitation of rounds a shotgun can hold make it a poor choice for my needs. For others it very well could be the best choice but I think with the option to own and training to use an AR should at least be considered by those who think the 12 guage is the “go to” weapon. For most instances where a weapon is needed the shotgun will work fine but all it takes is that one time when you have more targets than available rounds.
Weaver
Re 15yd hostage shot, if you’re the hostage you better create some distance. Unfortunately a lot of people who should know better recommend it first. At first I want to say they haven’t given it enough thought then I think if I had situation take place that would be the gun I would be the least pissed about being taken.
My boss goes to some island off the coast of Alaska each fall to fish. To be on this island, you must use a guide. No one is allowed on the island at night with the exception of a few natives. The island is crawling with kodak bears. The guides carry a sawed off, double barreled 12 gage with buckshot slung over their shoulder. It is aways with them. They say it is the only defense for a kodak
Thanks for this post, JM.
A lot of folks think that the shotgun is the baddest-assed, fight-stoppingest, WMD of the firearms world, but have never shot their shotguns very much, checked the patterning of their buckshot, checked the penetration of same, etc.
Lots of folks would be literally amazed to see the pattern of 00 buck at 50 yds. (and I mean a true, measured 50 yds., not “that looks like about 50″ when it’s only about 35). Likewise, most folks would be amazed how easy it is to miss with buckshot at extremely close range, like for example the ranges that would be encountered in a gunfight inside one’s home — say 5-10 yds.
I own several shotguns, mostly for hunting, but have a couple set up for defensive purposes – HOWEVER – I recognize their limitations and have thought through and practiced/drilled for various scenarios regarding their use with those limitations in mind.
second para, second sentence should read:
“….how easy it is to miss with a shotgun at extremely close range,…..”
But also think about he relative simplicity of shotgun maintenance, fewer parts that can “go wrong”. And in some areas of forest it is so jungle-like (as in my area) that even a 30-yard shot can be difficult. Indeed, the shotgun has its place.
Hey John, I was directed to this post by a family member because of my intent to purchase, and inevitably build, an 870. Now I recall a certain figure who once demonstrated the concept of a “battle rifle” by throwing his AR on the gravel and standing on it. My “collection” of combat/ defensive weaponry consists of time proven and battle proven firearms. Glock 19 in Flat Dark Earth
and a Spikes Tactical/ Colt LE6940 M4. Unfortunately I had to wait 8 months for my lower, but it was worth it. I see all my firearms as tools in a toolbox. The more tools tge better. I would like to have an arsenal for damn near all of my needs. I would also like to throw in an argument against your view of intimidating weaponry. I believe that a shotgun has, through the course of time, earned a reputation as being very intimidating. Be it the unique sound or just the sheer size. There’s something to be said about holding the bigger stick as well. I believe that whoever wields the bigger stick is going to have a confidence boost. Not just any random yahoo, but someone familiar with it who is trained in its use. I personally don’t believe that an 870 will replace my carbine in any way, shape, or form. I do believe it will help to diversify my knowledge base and add another tool where non existed. My questions: Should I add a shotgun to my toolbox? In what instance, if any, will a shotgun be favored against a carbine? Why has the 870 been riding in LEO patrol cars for so many years only to be shunned as an inferior tool? My point being every tool has a purpose. Should I make the investment? Thank you.
- 400
Somewhere in the woods
John,
I own all the weapons described, or variants of them anyway, so I thank you for the writing as I am not LEO, military or otherwise…just a guy. Because I am also a student, my reality research has pretty much brought me to the exact same conclusions you have come to. I don’t think anything is ever a perfect thing; all tools have pros and cons.
I think the most important comment in the entire article is the emphasis on training. I have scheduled professional training for all weapons, including night courses, throughout the remainder of the year, almost every month, most of them being 4 Day courses….I am not going to pretend to know anything. I am training to defend my home, to be extremely competent as a concealed carry citizen (legal and skill) and to understand the weapons deeply in the event I am separated from my own weapons and have to assume control of one I may not be as intimate with.
I was a guide in Alaska in my earlier days and the gentleman who noted the use of short barrel 12 gauge is correct, it is what I carried, along with a .44 magnum. Never had to use it thankfully.
I am amazed at he bullshit bravado of many owners and there seeming lack of respect for their firearms. I see people spend thousands of dollars on useless crap and than make excuses as to why they “can’t afford” training classes at reputable schools. Many of these same people are in debt to student loans and other consumer debt related to the lifestyle they profess to want to protect.
I believe that one must invest heavily in the practice, both financial and time. One must train with professionals if he expects to be professional.