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From the Comments

August 25, 2015

I found this request in my comments today:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Caught-on-Cam-Shooting-Deli-Robber-Fight-Hoagie-City-322084072.html

Would you mind doing a breakdown of everything that went wrong here? I don’t have the chops/experience to Monday morning quarterback him but I think this falls in line with what you’ve been stressing lately.

Thanks for doing what you do.”

So, I’m going to preface this with the statement that this is really, kind of outside my area of expertise. I would really like to see someone like Paul Sharp or Craig Douglas break this down, but since I was asked, and it’s something we all need to be thinking about, I’m going to go ahead and give my thoughts on my observations.

1) The victim (and make no mistake, he was a VICTIM) had zero fucking situational awareness. I’m guessing he was buying lottery tickets and scratching them off (seriously. That in itself tells me he’s a sucker), but I cannot imagine, in my worst nightmares, letting someone I didn’t know–especially in an otherwise empty Stop-N-Rob station–get that close behind me without at least turning around to a) see what the fuck he wanted, and b) asking if he would “pretty please, wouldja mind” BACKING THE FUCK OFF!!?

2) It looks like, and the movement of the BGs right hand seems to indicate, that his “concealed” gun was printing through his t-shirt. I could go into the benefits of appendix carry in preventing this, as well as protecting against the gun grab, but that would be self-evident (and will be mentioned below, anyway). While concealed carry is the only legitimate method of carry for thinking people for normal every day carry, for both tactical and political reasons (open carry in the woods is not “normal” for most of us, since we tend to live in towns, and carrying at a political rally MAY be open to debate, but for both tactical and political reasons, open carry in day-to-day life is retarded. Period.), it has to actually, you know…be concealed….

3) While, laudably, the victim was apparently WILLING to fight, he lacked the ABILITY to fight. This is something I’ve beat the EVER-LOVING-FUCK out of on this blog, as I beat on the “you need to get training” drum. Will is great, but skill beats will, more often than not. Dude is on his back, wrestling for hand control of the gun, and doesn’t know what the fuck to do. Now, I’m not going to say that having studied Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for six months would have made a difference (it would have), but at least, with some experience fighting from the bottom, he could have leveraged the presence of his legs into the fight by trying to replace guard, and giving himself some better degree of control of the situation to hopefully hang on to the gun, and maybe not get shot. Carrying appendix, when combined with some knowledge of how to fight, would have damned near guaranteed that he would have maintained positive control of the gun. Hell, he might have even been able to shoot the Bad Guy. As it is, he got shot at, with his own gun, before the BG took off with it.

There are few ways in this world that one can die, more embarrassing, than being shot with YOUR OWN GODDAMNED GUN!!!!

4) Dude just looked like a victim. I mean, seriously. Look at that scrawny little dude. My wrists are bigger around than his biceps. He needed to be in the gym, throwing some heavy weight around. At least then, since he lacked the skill to fight, he MIGHT have been able to leverage the STRENGTH to win….

(Yes, maybe he has cancer, or AIDS, or HerpeGonorrheaSyphilAIDS, or something else, and I’m a horrible person for making fun of him for not being a weightlifter. Tough shit. Fate don’t care. She’s a mean old cunt like that.)

Edited to add: And he looks like he’s wearing his goddamned pajamas out in public. Even the bad guy took the time to tuck his shirt in before he entered the store. Seriously. Dress like a goddamned grown man, not like a fucking eight year old. You’ll look less like a victim.

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18 Comments
  1. Dion Bafundo permalink

    That is one of my biggest worries. Loosing my gun. Your talks on getting training in hands on made an impact on me. I found a krav school close by and will be starting next month. I am a little old but figure better late than never.

    Quick side question in a past article you said you use Mobil 1 to lube ar? What do you use to clean then? I am looking to move that way also tired of spending a fortune on lube.thanks again.

    Thanks for the great articles and insight. Dion B.

  2. parapearce permalink

    Situational awareness**************

  3. Dan permalink

    John, et al: I took Craig Douglas’s ECQC class, and as part of that I got some intro to defense against being disarmed, and disarming others. It was later, on the last day of the class, my head was inside out and I could barely follow what was going on. I’m not knocking Craig or the course pace/material, just saying that at that point I had a lot on my mind. Anyway, where I am going with this comment is: I really need to find a video, book, teacher etc who can teach me some of that stuff. I’ve forgotten everything about that stuff that I learned at ECQC. I really want to learn some gun retention skills. I’m in PA. Is there anyone around that you can recommend for private lessons/tutoring? I don’t want to take a class with 16 other guys. Just not the way I want to learn right now. Am willing to pay for a good instructor’s time to do personal training in weapons disarms and weapons retention. Or, for a good series of DVDs or books. Can you make some suggestions?

    Thanks

    • I would tell you to get ahold of Cecil Burch or Paul Sharp, both of whom can be found with little difficulty, and ask for their input on a local BJJ coach to start training with. One thing I’ve found, once you get context to put the IFWA stuff into, it starts making more sense, and being considerably less overwhelming. Ultimately, it’s really not about the gun. It’s about being able to fight long enough to get the gun.

    • shawn@anti-fragile.net may be a local resource for you if you’re near Pittsburgh. Shawn is a student of Craigs. I’ve only trained with him a little, so you’ll have to make your own assessment if he offers what you’re looking for.

      Many folks take ECQC more than once.. The first time is the wake-up call, the others are checkpoints to see if you’ve been practicing.

  4. Reblogged this on Starvin Larry and commented:
    “Police say the suspect then grabbed a 22-year-old customer inside from behind and tried to rob him.”

    There is simply no excuse for a 22 year old kid to be that clueless about his surroundings,or to be so pathetically out of shape that he can not fight back in any meaningful way.
    Maybe if he ate a sandwich every once in a while instead of pissing away $$$ on lottery tickets-he would have weighed a few more pounds,and had the strength to fight back enough to have made a difference.
    The kid tried to fight back-I’ll give him that-but he had no idea what to do,he didn’t know how to fight back,and could have been shot and killed with his own weapon.

  5. Jay permalink

    ” Fate don’t care. She’s a mean old cunt like that.” Oh, I like that! Mind if I use it for forum sigs?

    • Not at all. Once in awhile, I do come up with a rather pithy one-liner.

      • Jay permalink

        Thanks! Tried to credit it to you, if you’d like me to include a weblink to this site in the quote source, let me know.

        “Fate don’t care. She’s a mean old cunt like that.” — Col. John S. Mosby, CSA

      • I’m not a colonel, and I never served in the Army of the Confederacy, so that’s a bit of intellectual dishonesty….. You can just quote it as John Mosby or “Mountain Guerrilla.”

  6. kapg permalink

    Damn it John, you’re right again! About 4 different ways.
    I just want to point out to folks the supplied link has two versions of the video…from the news and from the police. The police version is longer and much better at disclosing the tactical flaws committed by the “very lucky to still be able to be embarrassed victim.”

  7. Jeeze, kid is very lucky he wasn’t killed.

    It appears the incident occurred shortly after midnight, in a liquor store. (They ain’t just selling sandwiches). In my book, that falls squarely in the “stupid places, stupid places, stupid people” paradigm.

  8. 😂Can’t… breath!!! That was funny. Now, off to do dry fire and retention drills. Never know when Frost or MG is going to bump into you in the produce section.

  9. LMAO! Outstanding critique Brother, simply outstanding. Now to go swing some ‘bells lest my biceps get smaller than your wrists!

  10. Baddad310 permalink

    Heck, I could have even broke that one down. My 11 yo daughter has more situational awareness.

    One serious issue that not enough people consider IMHO is the fact that when I carry I have a responsibility NOT TO LET THE GUN INTO THE HANDS OF THE BAD GUY.

    My freaking head is on a swivel when I’m carrying. Even more so than normal. Where I sit in a restaurant, what direction I face, how I dress, where I go… There are lots of factors that I am constantly considering. And I consider myself a learner… No combat experience or LEO experience. (Although I did take a Mosby SUP class… One of the funnest and most valuable things I’ve done)

    Another factor, and I understand I’ll get shit for this, is I carry “Condition 3” or “Israeli method” 99% of the time. My muscle memory is to draw, chamber, then aim… The reasoning in my book is I’m more likely to have an NG than to need that extra 1/2 second it takes me to go to “condition 1”. I have kids in my house as well. They are educated on the rules of gun safety, but I like the extra margin for error.

    The reason I bring up this is that the chance of being disarmed and shot would be less if in “condition 3” because, unless the atracker is exceptionally bright, he will be thrown off enough when no round fires that I can regain the upper hand. My 2 cents worth.

    BW aka “Bruce MF Willis”

    • You knew you were going to catch shit for it, and you’re right. You have introduced an unnecessary step into the presentation process, increasing the odds that HE can interfere with YOUR ability to shoot him.

  11. Michael permalink

    Curious about his holster choice. Suspect I’m not the only one thinking it involved a generic nylon sock holster…

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